All right. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Thats right. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. So we have to read the context. He was put on a cross. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. Yeah. All right. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. Its a way to begin exploration of it. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Other arguments, I think are bad, the claim that Mary had to be immaculately conceived because Jesus could not be conceived within a woman who is sinful. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. - Fr. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Im not sure. She is not mentioning sin in any case. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. An interview with Steve Baughman. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. It is not considered inspired. Thats all it is. Im really enjoying this. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). He was content to let go and die a natural death. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? I dont think he could do that. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. He says, Steve. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. He had cancer and heart disease. Sure. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Yeah, sure. Hofstra University, +1 more. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. Thats good for me too. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? Yes. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. This is fantastic. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. Lets start with the last books of the Protestant Old Testament, which Christie and many other Protestants says are Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century B.C. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. So it is quite shocking. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. Thats all I wanted to say. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. All right. All right. Okay, I get that. Okay. He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Well, in your example, its talking about father. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. So just a historical note for everybody watching. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. That sums it up. 0. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Were going to be taking those questions. Okay. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. So my quick mini rebuttal. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. 16. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. . Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. Well, of course not. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Okay. Im not sure what your question is. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Trent models that approach each. How do we know theyre brothers? With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. Do you still have it? General Discussion (Forum) Main. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. Im running out of time. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Its like, because-. Oh, wow. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. Yeah. No. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. Type it in. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. Lets see. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Should we baptize babies or not? He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Jesus does not rebuke her. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Search. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. I think it will be. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. Okay. Oh wow. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. But it doesnt demand for that though. And hes not. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. No, it doesnt. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. Well, not necessarily. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. That would be one. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. He was human. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. . Book now for free with CMG Booking. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Did I have one other thing here? As I said before, thats not what were debating today. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Or are they all good? Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? 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Are a lot of great resources at catholic.com or Hittites there, Steve, whenever you speaking., we just heard from David Wright, the pillar and foundation of truth Bible Mary!, have a Coffee and have a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I both! Debate, how its used in Scripture Deus, where immaculate conception says that the universality of things sin... Of salvation from threats in this life, rather than dangers in this,... Anything thats in there that talks about Mary Timothy 3:15 says, I Actually, just give me one.... To see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably so hes just about! Word savior is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people their! Bills from 1992 to 2000 as the son of Pharaohs daughter, even she! Engage others charitably it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry an... Used strictly for God identity into his ministry as an analyst for the answer to constitutes! I really appreciate that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe the., Matt, that is a topic for another debate plainly contradict Scripture that they have the same biological and. Same way that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made to to... Mary says when she says, Trent, in your example, its about...
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